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I'm still feeling iffy about the altitude stuff, but, my Y is still running rich at warm idle still. It seems to vary between cold starts, being 12.5 at the highest and 10.8 at the lowest.

The alba tune and trinity absolutely rips. I was scared of the gytr base but it feels like a different vehicle again. Everything is an absolute blur and I can't do anything but had on at full throttle, but the o2 looks like it's bouncing between 10s and 11s at full throttle. It seems a little rich, but I'm done troubleshooting till the winter, where I'll get a logging solution to tie in afrs with speed and rpm.

I think the PC is the way to go, and they have the auto tune module which is probably a thing to get too. Push turbo guy said it was the way he normally goes. Then get it to a tuner to make a map, ideally at your running elevation. Or do it by hand. The motec is too much money unless your dumping 25k into engine and turbo to run 300 plus HP.

The tune from a canned tube manufacturer comes with other benefits, like unlock top speed limit, unlock 5th gear rpm limit, lower fan activation, etc. I was hoping you'd solve that with FT, but, ohh well.
Yep, all of these things are why I'm just at a loss and feel its the easiest way to just get the job done. Holding breath for anything else is likely going to mean at least another season/year without this project being done at this point, as I've already had it on hold for nearly 3 months. I do wonder what the difference is between the PC5 and PC6, they seem almost identical (both work with Autotune which of course is a must).

Before I do anything I am going to go ahead and put on my Secondary AIR delete, and see how the WBO2 reads with a completely stock car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #182 ·
Yep, all of these things are why I'm just at a loss and feel its the easiest way to just get the job done. Holding breath for anything else is likely going to mean at least another season/year without this project being done at this point, as I've already had it on hold for nearly 3 months. I do wonder what the difference is between the PC5 and PC6, they seem almost identical (both work with Autotune which of course is a must).

Before I do anything I am going to go ahead and put on my Secondary AIR delete, and see how the WBO2 reads with a completely stock car.
Autotune without O2 delete would probably run unbearably rich. O2 delete is basically a must without a smarter ECU that can time O2 readings with air inject system pauses

I'm going to hold off for now on the PC, as the PC + Autotune module is the same price as an EMU Black ecu. If I had a non-SS, I'd just drop the EMU in and play with it/just go. The SS part adds complexity that LaRue hasn't figured out yet. Concerning, but, a 1200 dollar standalone is much more my price, than a $1000 PC6 bandaid or a $4500 motec.
 

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Autotune without O2 delete would probably run unbearably rich. O2 delete is basically a must without a smarter ECU that can time O2 readings with air inject system pauses

I'm going to hold off for now on the PC, as the PC + Autotune module is the same price as an EMU Black ecu. If I had a non-SS, I'd just drop the EMU in and play with it/just go. The SS part adds complexity that LaRue hasn't figured out yet. Concerning, but, a 1200 dollar standalone is much more my price, than a $1000 PC6 bandaid or a $4500 motec.
Once I do that secondary AIR delete with WBO2 on my completely stock N/A car, the guessing game will be out of the fueling as how Yamaha (Truly) had designed the machine for AFR (actual burn in cylinder). Very curious to see those results myself.

As for the cost I am seeing the Dynojet Power Commander 6 (PTI which is the Pressure Version) as $490 and the Autotune $330, straight from the Dynojet website. So $820 is not bad at all if it straightens out the fueling AND more importantly ends the tuning AFR saga now. It seems others are jumping onboard so hopefully that means it is a fairly sound solution. Considering the lack of alternatives and open loop no matter what you do (without going standalone anyway), sadly it is just the best concept that we have to work with here.

That $1,200 EMU Black standalone, even IF it worked for SS (which it doesn't), would surely find a way to milk you out of more time and $$ as well. These things always do.
 

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Very confused on the ITB+Lopey Cam= overly rich idle being normal talk.

My WB02 results are in on a completely stock, naturally aspirated, still has air injection, 2019 SS.

Footnotes:
80*F Ambients
500' Elevation
New AEM WBO2
Cold start in the 15.8-16.2 range (but hangs a bit more in the richer range)
As it gets some heat in it, it leans out a bit more towards 16.0-16.4 range (but hangs a bit more in the leaner range)
It pretty much stays in the 16.1 range (+/-0.3AFR) from cold start all the way to radiator fan cycling.
Throttle stabs push towards the 12.xx range.
I did NOT drive to get consistent WOT fueling.

Summary: A bit leaner than I'd figured on idle, but seems to be fueled very well and all very consistent. Some faith has been restored in the potential of the ECU, but more faith lost in some of the tuning options.
New results with the capped off Air Injection. Still a completely stock, naturally aspirated, 2019 SS.

Footnotes:
83*F Ambients
500' Elevation
New AEM WBO2
Cold start is around 12.8 for a moment and it doesn't take too long before it is right around 13.0. Shortly thereafter (just a bit of heat in it) and moves towards 13.2, and it is very stable from that point onward to fan cycling.
So it stays in the 13.0 range (+/-0.2AFR) from cold start all the way to radiator fan cycling.
Throttle stabs push towards the 12.xx range.
I did NOT drive to get consistent WOT fueling.

Summary: I see no reason why they'd tuned the GYTR setup to idle so much richer than that. FWIW my idle is pretty stable around 1,500rpm.
 

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New results with the capped off Air Injection. Still a completely stock, naturally aspirated, 2019 SS.

Footnotes:
83*F Ambients
500' Elevation
New AEM WBO2
Cold start is around 12.8 for a moment and it doesn't take too long before it is right around 13.0. Shortly thereafter (just a bit of heat in it) and moves towards 13.2, and it is very stable from that point onward to fan cycling.
So it stays in the 13.0 range (+/-0.2AFR) from cold start all the way to radiator fan cycling.
Throttle stabs push towards the 12.xx range.
I did NOT drive to get consistent WOT fueling.

Summary: I see no reason why they'd tuned the GYTR setup to idle so much richer than that. FWIW my idle is pretty stable around 1,500rpm.
So with AIR in place it would read leaner, right?
 

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So with AIR in place it would read leaner, right?
With AIR in place it was about 15.8 on cold start working its way to 16.4 at fan cycling. Without AIR in place it starts about 12.8 working its way to 13.2. Both were very stable but indeed the Secondary AIR made a whopping 3.0 (leaner) difference on the idle AFR reading, admittedly a more dramatic difference than I expected.

Keep in mind Secondary AIR doesn't change the explosion events happening in the combustion chamber, it only changes what is coming out the exhaust ports.

As far as I can fathom and based on this data, whether N/A or Turbo, these things should be fueled around 13.0-13.2 at hot idle (without Secondary AIR) when closer to sea level.
 

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Discussion Starter · #187 ·
New results with the capped off Air Injection. Still a completely stock, naturally aspirated, 2019 SS.

Footnotes:
83*F Ambients
500' Elevation
New AEM WBO2
Cold start is around 12.8 for a moment and it doesn't take too long before it is right around 13.0. Shortly thereafter (just a bit of heat in it) and moves towards 13.2, and it is very stable from that point onward to fan cycling.
So it stays in the 13.0 range (+/-0.2AFR) from cold start all the way to radiator fan cycling.
Throttle stabs push towards the 12.xx range.
I did NOT drive to get consistent WOT fueling.

Summary: I see no reason why they'd tuned the GYTR setup to idle so much richer than that. FWIW my idle is pretty stable around 1,500rpm.
Interesting takeaways here:

Yamaha must be injecting air into the exhaust stream from cold start(since you pre-O2 delete were seeing 16s at start, and now are seeing 12s). This is dumb, because the O2 injection won't help burn off the exhaust gasses when cold. Why even have a control solenoid then, I wonder.

Your numbers are only lean compared to mine. The others who have chimed in on the AFR post with base GYTR/Alba are all in the 12.5-13 range, which seems close enough to your numbers that it could be down to noise/day/luck. Roof and I seem to vary between mid 11s and low 12s. Mine is usually consistent after key-on, but variable between key-ons., which, I don't understand. I may have something off in my setup, but it's going to have to wait until riding season is over. As long as the problem stays as a rich issue, it's not a real concern for motor health.

I have also been WAAAY down the rabbit hole on fuel system function and tolerances, and have learned enough that it would be engine suicide to tune to stoich on an open-loop system. Yamaha's service manual states a 9PSI difference (46.1min to 55.7) in acceptable fuel pressure tolerance to the rail, which is +/- almost 20%!!!!! This seems super sketchy, especially since everything I've read about boost says you want to start thinking about boost-referencing the fuel regulator past 10ish psi(aka, the more pressure a injector sees, the more fuel it dumps, fairly linearly, so it's safer to tune the ECU flat and increase fuel pressure at the injector tip to account for the increase in cylinder pressures.)

20% tolerance is wild, would directly increaes/decrease the fuel flow of the injectors, and that's just the tolerance on the pump. There's also voltage regulator tolerances that drive the injectors(more volts = more fuel), and other things. None of this explains the altitude, but it could easily explain people's rich conditions, my possibly unluckily but within spec conditions, and all points to why open loop ECUs suck.

None of that exactly explains my altitude problem. Still undecided on the path I'm going to take to make sure altitude trips aren't ruined.

I don't think I'd be afraid of the canned tunes being rich at this point. I think people's 12AFR is fine.
 

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Agree that I'd not be too concerned if I was like any other in the 12.5-13.0 range on cold start idles, that seems to be practically the norm based on these current findings. So if I were tweaking idle on my GYTR setup (ie. if we had FTecu available) then that would be my target too. However I'd certainly be more concerned if I was a point or two richer, or more so if it led to fouling plugs (potentially ruining a trip) at elevation.

From some quick skimming (unless I read it wrong?) it sounds like you get much richer as you warm up, whereas I'm the opposite here as I'm getting only getting slightly (ie. ~0.5 point) leaner. Looks like roofintrash went from ~11.0 cold start to ~11.8 at fan cycle with his tuned GYTR setup, so also leaning out with heat but ~1.5 points richer than my N/A setup. I agree in that tuners (maybe even Yamaha too) are likely tossing in a lot more fuel everywhere to just cover bases due to many variables that they (nor open loop) can predict (or see), but at idle you'd think they could get it pretty close without much risk.

Afrs still in 12s on start, and trend towards 11s and 10s as it warms up.
So, the new ecu and pipe run the same basically, 11s and 12s at warm idle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #189 ·
Agree that I'd not be too concerned if I was like any other in the 12.5-13.0 range on cold start idles, that seems to be practically the norm based on these current findings. So if I were tweaking idle on my GYTR setup (ie. if we had FTecu available) then that would be my target too. However I'd certainly be more concerned if I was a point or two richer, or more so if it led to fouling plugs (potentially ruining a trip) at elevation.

From some quick skimming (unless I read it wrong?) it sounds like you get much richer as you warm up, whereas I'm the opposite here as I'm getting only getting slightly (ie. ~0.5 point) leaner. Looks like roofintrash went from ~11.0 cold start to ~11.8 at fan cycle with his tuned GYTR setup, so also leaning out with heat but ~1.5 points richer than my N/A setup. I agree in that tuners (maybe even Yamaha too) are likely tossing in a lot more fuel everywhere to just cover bases due to many variables that they (nor open loop) can predict (or see), but at idle you'd think they could get it pretty close without much risk.
I guess I shouldn't have said "same" as much as "still not great". On GYTR+Stock I was seeing 11.5-12.5 at cold start and low 10.5-11.5 at warm idle. On ALBA+Trinity, I'm seeing 11.5-12.2 basically from cold to warm. I should have never referred to that as " the same"!

I still wonder about a gremlin in the system, though without a code and with it running as good as it is, I think I might send it. I wish there was an easy way to simulate elevation at sea level so I could not ruin another trip. I really don't want to drop another grand on something potentially unnecessary, but I haven't made any decisions yet.
 

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Just so I am clear:
1) On your GYTR tune and stock exhaust you were seeing 11.5-12.5 at cold start and low 10.5-11.5 at warm idle?
2) On your Alba tune and Trinity exhaust you are seeing 11.5 at cold start to 12.2 to warm idle?

If so I'd say the tuning (and exhaust) helped a lot because the GYTR tune/stock exhaust setup was incredibly odd richening up with more heat, while being more unstable in the process. Your new tuned setup is basically identical to mine but ~1 point richer, so not too shabby.
 

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Discussion Starter · #191 ·
Just so I am clear:
1) On your GYTR tune and stock exhaust you were seeing 11.5-12.5 at cold start and low 10.5-11.5 at warm idle?
2) On your Alba tune and Trinity exhaust you are seeing 11.5 at cold start to 12.2 to warm idle?

If so I'd say the tuning (and exhaust) helped a lot because the GYTR tune/stock exhaust setup was incredibly odd richening up with more heat, while being more unstable in the process. Your new tuned setup is basically identical to mine but ~1 point richer, so not too shabby.
I should have took better notes on my GYTR setup...

What I remember for sure, was AFRs dropping going from cold to warm idle. Typical was probably 11.5 at cold to 10.5 at warm.

Now on Alba, I'm seeing cold idle usually start around 11.5, and as it warms I've once seen up to 12.2 at warm idle, but a few times seen as low as being an unchanging 11.5 still at warm idle.

It still seems pretty variable compared to what I'd expect. I'm also trying to not idle a bunch and shut down to avoid gunking up the plugs so I haven't done it a bunch to collect a lot of data. I might start keeping a logbook on it starting with this weekends trip though.
 

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I should have took better notes on my GYTR setup...

What I remember for sure, was AFRs dropping going from cold to warm idle. Typical was probably 11.5 at cold to 10.5 at warm.

Now on Alba, I'm seeing cold idle usually start around 11.5, and as it warms I've once seen up to 12.2 at warm idle, but a few times seen as low as being an unchanging 11.5 still at warm idle.

It still seems pretty variable compared to what I'd expect. I'm also trying to not idle a bunch and shut down to avoid gunking up the plugs so I haven't done it a bunch to collect a lot of data. I might start keeping a logbook on it starting with this weekends trip though.
I think you should see a pretty consistent leaning (ie. ~0.5-1 point) as you warm up. That has been the trend for my limited tests. It would be nice if you were about a point leaner all around (around idle), but as stated it could all just be an "error on side of caution" type thing.
 

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The air-injection causing such a lean exhaust may be what the CAT needs to get the right temp. to do its job.
 

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The air-injection causing such a lean exhaust may be what the CAT needs to get the right temp. to do its job.
Agree to the possibility. I’ve said it previously that Yam has emissions and other factors to deal with in these vehicles. I really have to respect the engineers at Yamaha that there is a method to their madness 😉😁. I also respect the efforts you guys are putting into making something better once the whole “regulations” thing goes out the window. I’ve started my turbo install and am thinking that I should install a bung in the exhaust for a sensor (even if I don’t need it now). Where should I locate it in the exhaust pipe?
 

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The air-injection causing such a lean exhaust may be what the CAT needs to get the right temp. to do its job.
Yeah, I think its pretty normal for secondary injection to be functioning at cold start. Certainly for emissions and also likely for some CAT preservation measures, I could definitely smell the fuel with it blocked off when cold and my sniffer is not what it used to be these days. On these cars it seems like it really just is controlled to turn off/on via solenoid somewhere higher than idle, as the idle tune is pretty constant throughout the entire warm up cycle (with and without functional secondary AIR).
 
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