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Firstly any idea why your smoke test ended up with smoke out your exhaust (with the air injection deleted)? It should stop at the intake or exhaust valve inside the chamber, unless you just happen to catch a smidge of camshaft overlap (seems unlikely).

Mostly from this thread I hope this doesn't happen to me. Last year we drove about 14 hours to get to the mountains for a ride weekend and rode trail systems up to ~10k feet. All of that for this immediate off the trailer outcome would be terrible trip. My completely stock machine was a complete slug, especially ran like complete crap initially but seemed like it "adjusted" to a tolerable state, and I was able to make it mostly work out but was an absolute chore powering up some of the climbs. Once I get this GYTR Turbo kit installed I have no way to test it otherwise as there is no where close to get any elevation around me. That said if you ever figure anything out please circle back, I'll keep the spare parts around just in case.
EXACTLY! This thread got me worried as well.

BUT, after reading through and following along, I really have to believe that what happened is a mechanical issue somewhere. You said it perfectly in your post #38 when you mention something going awry.

I also think that Albas tune allows better tuning because they don’t have to tune around parameters dictated by CARB. Yamaha does and is also working around a restrictive catalytic exhaust.

So, I will go forward with eyes wide open and install my kit at the end of this month and hope for the best. The majority are not having issues.

And I sincerely hope Spotsjd gets this figured out and reports his findings. It ultimately helps out everyone here.
 

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EXACTLY! This thread got me worried as well.

BUT, after reading through and following along, I really have to believe that what happened is a mechanical issue somewhere. You said it perfectly in your post #38 when you mention something going awry.

I also think that Albas tune allows better tuning because they don’t have to tune around parameters dictated by CARB. Yamaha does and is also working around a restrictive catalytic exhaust.

So, I will go forward with eyes wide open and install my kit at the end of this month and hope for the best. The majority are not having issues.

And I sincerely hope Spotsjd gets this figured out and reports his findings. It ultimately helps out everyone here.
I think most love the Alba tune/exhaust setup is that it really allows the turbo to breath, as the OE exhaust is very restrictive even when N/A. So basically free'ing up the exhaust is what is really helping, and the tune is just ensuring the fueling is a match for the exhaust. I'm not sold on much other tuning being involved personally, but perhaps I am wrong. Even if so unfortunately you really have to follow their exact upgrade path to a "T" to have any fighting chance of the tune being close to ideal. Yamaha did really deal us a bum hand with this open loop ECU, and as such I would not be surprised if I pull the trigger on a Motec when said and done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Firstly any idea why your smoke test ended up with smoke out your exhaust (with the air injection deleted)? It should stop at the intake or exhaust valve inside the chamber, unless you just happen to catch a smidge of camshaft overlap (seems unlikely).

Mostly from this thread I hope this doesn't happen to me. Last year we drove about 14 hours to get to the mountains for a ride weekend and rode trail systems up to ~10k feet. All of that for this immediate off the trailer outcome would be terrible trip. My completely stock machine was a complete slug, especially ran like complete crap initially but seemed like it "adjusted" to a tolerable state, and I was able to make it mostly work out but was an absolute chore powering up some of the climbs. Once I get this GYTR Turbo kit installed I have no way to test it otherwise as there is no where close to get any elevation around me. That said if you ever figure anything out please circle back, I'll keep the spare parts around just in case.
I thought the smoke out the exhaust was funny too, and the stupid little box wasn't reading much pressure, but then I realized I probably sat there for 5+ minutes, enough to find a zip tie and zip tie the leaky air inject delete. It wasn't a huge amount of smoke, so I assume it was going intake valve -> ring gaps -> crankcase -> ring gaps -> exhaust valve. The only other place the intake and exhaust cross is the turbo, and if it was there then I'd have bigger problems.

From what I've learned now, I'm fairly confident this is a glitch. I don't know how fast the ECU samples the 1bar sensor, and if I cranked it over too soon after key-on out of excitement, it could have read during crank and rejected the value, or realized it didn't have enough time to read and held the 200ft elevation reading(usually a decent safe way to fail to read). By the time I keyed off for the day, and then keyed on loading onto the trailer, the plugs were shot and the raw fuel during that time was related to that.

In any of these cases, I'm still annoyed because if a system is dumping raw fuel out the exhaust, it should throw some sort of code. A system that doesn't do that, is a system I want to ride with as little as possible. It's why I'm getting an 02 sensor as a bandaid, going to be careful for my last few trips to sea level, and then probably just buy an EMU Black and attempt to get it to work, open sourcing my results along the way.

If the ECU thing looks awful, I might try a PC6 autotune setup. It really, really seems like a device that will just end up in my "Expensive parts I've outgrown" bucket in the attic.
 

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I thought the smoke out the exhaust was funny too, and the stupid little box wasn't reading much pressure, but then I realized I probably sat there for 5+ minutes, enough to find a zip tie and zip tie the leaky air inject delete. It wasn't a huge amount of smoke, so I assume it was going intake valve -> ring gaps -> crankcase -> ring gaps -> exhaust valve. The only other place the intake and exhaust cross is the turbo, and if it was there then I'd have bigger problems.

From what I've learned now, I'm fairly confident this is a glitch. I don't know how fast the ECU samples the 1bar sensor, and if I cranked it over too soon after key-on out of excitement, it could have read during crank and rejected the value, or realized it didn't have enough time to read and held the 200ft elevation reading(usually a decent safe way to fail to read). By the time I keyed off for the day, and then keyed on loading onto the trailer, the plugs were shot and the raw fuel during that time was related to that.

In any of these cases, I'm still annoyed because if a system is dumping raw fuel out the exhaust, it should throw some sort of code. A system that doesn't do that, is a system I want to ride with as little as possible. It's why I'm getting an 02 sensor as a bandaid, going to be careful for my last few trips to sea level, and then probably just buy an EMU Black and attempt to get it to work, open sourcing my results along the way.

If the ECU thing looks awful, I might try a PC6 autotune setup. It really, really seems like a device that will just end up in my "Expensive parts I've outgrown" bucket in the attic.
Couldn't agree with you more in this post, this ECU is really lacking intelligence in so many ways, it works but should not be praised for anymore more than being extremely basic. In dealing with it in the meantime let's hope the next time you get to elevation some more "finesse" can get a better MAP read and tune adjustment.

Going to give FTecu until next week until some sort of progress is made, if it is still looking bleak will just be sending it back. Then once (and if) I get into modding it, I'm probably going straight to Motec.
 

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Just bumped into this old thread, any chance your plenum too is partially attached?
 

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Just bumped into this old thread, any chance your plenum too is partially attached?
Good research! I hope there is something to this. BTW, I’ve seen more than once that the Weller intake boots and support are a good thing. May preemptively do this mod.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Just bumped into this old thread, any chance your plenum too is partially attached?
Not really, I'd imagine I'd see it either in the smoke test or in running at sea level. If my plenum was loosr at all, I'm sure it would run poorly at sea level on boost as well. Sounds like that guys plenum came off in transit. and he hadn't rechecked at his 1300ft.
 

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Not really, I'd imagine I'd see it either in the smoke test or in running at sea level. If my plenum was loosr at all, I'm sure it would run poorly at sea level on boost as well. Sounds like that guys plenum came off in transit. and he hadn't rechecked at his 1300ft.
Yeah, I'd imagine that he'd notice/hear a huge boost leak too, 8psi or so should be pretty noticeable. But seems like many do not notice it until they closely inspect it, so don't want to imagine too much. Those low pressure smoke tests are kind of junk in some cases, I know shops use them but I've always preferred using a real pressure test (ie. at 15-20psi) and actually listening for leaks myself. In any case it looks like a good idea to not mount the plenum to the frame, affixing it to the engine would be better solution for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Yeah, I'd imagine that he'd notice/hear a huge boost leak too, 8psi or so should be pretty noticeable. But seems like many do not notice it until they closely inspect it, so don't want to imagine too much. Those low pressure smoke tests are kind of junk in some cases, I know shops use them but I've always preferred using a real pressure test (ie. at 15-20psi) and actually listening for leaks myself. In any case it looks like a good idea to not mount the plenum to the frame, affixing it to the engine would be better solution for sure.
If my AFR gauge reads right during testing this weekend at sea level (pretty sure it will), and the Y is still scaring me in 2wd on the dirt (pretty sure it will), I'll be done done with troubleshooting this, and probably doing some sort of standalone before going back to 5kft. I'd going to strongly suggest the same to everyone. I know group-buys can turn to crap real quick, but if there is enough interest, it could be a thought.

I always hate when parts are mounted to other parts that have the possibility of moving relative to the first. But, the engine appears to be hard mounted, and the amount of movement should be tiny. And like you've pointed out, if it was common to pop plenums, there would be a lot of threads.

My guess is the loose plenums are from people who don't know how boost works in general and use a screwdriver instead of a ratchet on the clamps.
 

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If my AFR gauge reads right during testing this weekend at sea level (pretty sure it will), and the Y is still scaring me in 2wd on the dirt (pretty sure it will), I'll be done done with troubleshooting this, and probably doing some sort of standalone before going back to 5kft. I'd going to strongly suggest the same to everyone. I know group-buys can turn to crap real quick, but if there is enough interest, it could be a thought.

I always hate when parts are mounted to other parts that have the possibility of moving relative to the first. But, the engine appears to be hard mounted, and the amount of movement should be tiny. And like you've pointed out, if it was common to pop plenums, there would be a lot of threads.

My guess is the loose plenums are from people who don't know how boost works in general and use a screwdriver instead of a ratchet on the clamps.
I thought I'd noticed that too about the hard mounted engine. The guy in the thread does mention that the bracket "didn't fit right" or "was too short", so maybe those few complaints I've stumbled upon were just install issues afterall? Or maybe many others just thought the issue was easy enough to resurrect and didn't care enough to create a thread about it. I'll probably look into making an engine mount to play it safe.

Agree on the Group Buys, I'll pass on the likely sub 15% discount there and just get one ordered by myself lol.

Would be nice to hear quite a few 3rd parties with the GYTR Turbo kit confirm they are able to go to whatever elevations they want and still have a fine running machine.
 

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Would be nice to hear quite a few 3rd parties with the GYTR Turbo kit confirm they are able to go to whatever elevations they want and still have a fine running machine.
So help me out here.
If the stock sensors feed info to the ECM and everything works well before a turbo is installed, what is it about a turbo that changes things?
I mean, I get the obvious. More fuel to mix with charged air and such but isn’t that all done in tuning the ECM? Remapping A/F mixtures for a turbo application.
If the map sensor can provide info to a non turbo unit and it performs well at sea level as well as 6k ft, what changes when you add a turbo? There are a thousand non turbo units that go from sea level to the mountains on a regular basis without issue.

Agreed, It would be nice for those who are problem free turbo owners to chime in.
But usually, happy customers don’t chime in. Those with problems do. So I’m guessing most are happy?
Let us know owners!
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
So help me out here.
If the stock sensors feed info to the ECM and everything works well before a turbo is installed, what is it about a turbo that changes things?
I mean, I get the obvious. More fuel to mix with charged air and such but isn’t that all done in tuning the ECM? Remapping A/F mixtures for a turbo application.
If the map sensor can provide info to a non turbo unit and it performs well at sea level as well as 6k ft, what changes when you add a turbo? There are a thousand non turbo units that go from sea level to the mountains on a regular basis without issue.

Agreed, It would be nice for those who are problem free turbo owners to chime in.
But usually, happy customers don’t chime in. Those with problems do. So I’m guessing most are happy?
Let us know owners!
While I think most don't have problems, I also think most don't change elevation much. I rode everything I owned between 0ft and 500ft for 15 years until about 5 years ago. I'd be curious of the number of Y owners that run more than 500ft of elevation difference, let alone gytr owners.

The only sensor changed on the gytr kit is the 1 bar to 3 bar to detect the boost. It replaces a 1 bar sensor. What I don't have a clear answer on is, is the second, front map sensor on the engine purely for atmosphere? And, is it possible to ruin/nullify the atmospheric reading with a quick key on to start time? And why would an atmospheric map sensor be tied into the intake? Pure lazyness and cheapness? Was it used to double check the first map sensor on the stock Y while running and the gytr moves to a single map solution? Making that atmosphere alone?

If only the yxz community was a bit more like the civic community.
 

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While I think most don't have problems, I also think most don't change elevation much. I rode everything I owned between 0ft and 500ft for 15 years until about 5 years ago. I'd be curious of the number of Y owners that run more than 500ft of elevation difference, let alone gytr owners.

The only sensor changed on the gytr kit is the 1 bar to 3 bar to detect the boost. It replaces a 1 bar sensor. What I don't have a clear answer on is, is the second, front map sensor on the engine purely for atmosphere? And, is it possible to ruin/nullify the atmospheric reading with a quick key on to start time? And why would an atmospheric map sensor be tied into the intake? Pure lazyness and cheapness? Was it used to double check the first map sensor on the stock Y while running and the gytr moves to a single map solution? Making that atmosphere alone?

If only the yxz community was a bit more like the civic community.
Oh, that’s right, the map sensor is different on the turbo kit.
I have read some threads where Albanate mentions the GAP 3 bar which Yamaha was using. Had some issues with it….?
 

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While I think most don't have problems, I also think most don't change elevation much. I rode everything I owned between 0ft and 500ft for 15 years until about 5 years ago. I'd be curious of the number of Y owners that run more than 500ft of elevation difference, let alone gytr owners.

The only sensor changed on the gytr kit is the 1 bar to 3 bar to detect the boost. It replaces a 1 bar sensor. What I don't have a clear answer on is, is the second, front map sensor on the engine purely for atmosphere? And, is it possible to ruin/nullify the atmospheric reading with a quick key on to start time? And why would an atmospheric map sensor be tied into the intake? Pure lazyness and cheapness? Was it used to double check the first map sensor on the stock Y while running and the gytr moves to a single map solution? Making that atmosphere alone?

If only the yxz community was a bit more like the civic community.
As already mentioned my bone stock '19 YXZ ran like crap at initial start as well, when took it from near sea level to around 8k ft last year. Fortunately it stayed running at first but I do remember it was not normal and had some struggles. It also ran very poorly for the first hour or so IIRC and seemed like it slowly adapted over time. I don't know if it adjusted with multiple starts, key ons, etc. or not; but I did end up riding it the entire weekend and it seemed to do well aside from being way down on power (as expected it would). This was all yet another big reason to want a turbo, to help nullify the power losses of making such a trip.

Regarding the Map sensors this engine was re-purposed from the Sidewinder, which was turbo'd. That may explain the multiple Map sensors, the forward 1 bar unit could be for better resolution for fueling during vacuum through 0psi (and setting up for atmospheric pressure), and needing a 2+ bar rearward unit for boosted fueling. Since the rearward one is changed in the kit, it is clear that is the one that matters for fueling boosted (0+ psi) scenarios. This also explains why the 1 bar was indicated would be more likely the problem when you spoke with Nate/Alba, as your problem was just fresh start non-boosted.

There is a bit of explanation here as well:
"The system targets absolute pressure in the intake manifold, using pressure sensors on both sides of the throttle bodies."
 

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Oh, that’s right, the map sensor is different on the turbo kit.
I have read some threads where Albanate mentions the GAP 3 bar which Yamaha was using. Had some issues with it….?
I'd seen that too, but those issues were some stumble under load. This case was idling off a trailer and essentially self fouled plugs from being pig rich. Ruling out any mechanical/install issue in this case, it seems whatever measure the ECU takes to recognize atmospheric pressure was not recognized, and it was still fueling him like he was at sea level.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
As already mentioned my bone stock '19 YXZ ran like crap at initial start as well, when took it from near sea level to around 8k ft last year. Fortunately it stayed running at first but I do remember it was not normal and had some struggles. It also ran very poorly for the first hour or so IIRC and seemed like it slowly adapted over time. I don't know if it adjusted with multiple starts, key ons, etc. or not; but I did end up riding it the entire weekend and it seemed to do well aside from being way down on power (as expected it would). This was all yet another big reason to want a turbo, to help nullify the power losses of making such a trip.

Regarding the Map sensors this engine was re-purposed from the Sidewinder, which was turbo'd. That may explain the multiple Map sensors, the forward 1 bar unit could be for better resolution for fueling during vacuum through 0psi (and setting up for atmospheric pressure), and needing a 2+ bar rearward unit for boosted fueling. Since the rearward one is changed in the kit, it is clear that is the one that matters for fueling boosted (0+ psi) scenarios. This also explains why the 1 bar was indicated would be more likely the problem when you spoke with Nate/Alba, as your problem was just fresh start non-boosted.

There is a bit of explanation here as well:
"The system targets absolute pressure in the intake manifold, using pressure sensors on both sides of the throttle bodies."
I realized you had power issues(pretty expected at 8k), but didn't realize you had idle issues. That's concerning. Did you check your forward map sensor? :p

What's got me thinking that on the stock yxz at least, that forward sensor is only atmospheric is, Yamaha isn't in the business of handing out free 50 dollar parts. If the forward one is for atmosphere and below 1 bar boost, and the rear is used for boost, why give us a free unused 1 bar in the back on the the system? It's just more vacuum leak potential and wasted money.

A tuner, or someone at ftutune would probably know the answer for sure. Wonder if they would share with us.

Or, we go to standalones.
 

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I realized you had power issues(pretty expected at 8k), but didn't realize you had idle issues. That's concerning. Did you check your forward map sensor? :p

What's got me thinking that on the stock yxz at least, that forward sensor is only atmospheric is, Yamaha isn't in the business of handing out free 50 dollar parts. If the forward one is for atmosphere and below 1 bar boost, and the rear is used for boost, why give us a free unused 1 bar in the back on the the system? It's just more vacuum leak potential and wasted money.

A tuner, or someone at ftutune would probably know the answer for sure. Wonder if they would share with us.

Or, we go to standalones.
Rest assured had I been stranded in the cabin for 3 days due to fouled up plugs, while all my RZR/Can-Am buddies had the time of their lives in the mountains after our 14 hour road trip journey, I'd left no stone unturned until I found the issue. That or sell the machine and join them lol. Honestly at the time I didn't even know this was an open loop setup, never really looked and never really cared, as it ran good and even at elevation seemed like it "acclimated" fine in some small window of time (and still have the original plugs installed to this day). Was not until recently, into researching this turbo upgrade venture, where I started really looking deeper into all of the tuning logic.

And as for the reason for the extra sensor, IMO, is likely due to resolution. These sensors work on 0-5v and so the larger the pressure spectrum (ie. 1 bar, 2 bar, 3 bar, etc.) the less granular the resolution. That and this is a sidewinder engine, which was a native turbo engine, so they probably felt it was easier to repurpose the engine as N/A even if that meant including an extra 1 bar $50 MAP sensor (for redundancy at the very least). Keep in mind the sidewinder actually uses a 2 Bar Map sensor (good only to 14.7psi), why not just go for a 3 or 4 Bar? Resolution again is most likely.

To your point in OE N/A trim I do not see why they could not have omitted it and used the 1 sensor to get the job done, but whatever the case I am glad they have the placeholder/wiring in place to provision for future turbo upgrades.

EDIT: The Sidewinder community says one of their MAP sensors is actually a Barometric (Atmospheric Pressure) sensor only, and doesn't have a hose connected to it.
 

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what if you swap the front sensor with the extra sensor you had left over. If the front sensor is faulty, then you have a spare to try. They are the same sensor correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
So I have no idea why, but got my o2 sensor installed tonight, and only had time to idle it up, but it read at 10.8ish and smelled a little gassier than usual, all at sea level. I shut it down after about 30 seconds.

So, I have an intermittent something maybe. Greaaaaaat.

Those sensors should be swappable so, that's my next step I suppose. I did probably splash some coolant around filling the intercooler. Maybe some got on the sensor. I want to get another 3 bar before I go to the beach next weekend, but not sure if they are available locally.

Again, telemetry would make this so much easier.
 

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So I have no idea why, but got my o2 sensor installed tonight, and only had time to idle it up, but it read at 10.8ish and smelled a little gassier than usual, all at sea level. I shut it down after about 30 seconds.

So, I have an intermittent something maybe. Greaaaaaat.

Those sensors should be swappable so, that's my next step I suppose. I did probably splash some coolant around filling the intercooler. Maybe some got on the sensor. I want to get another 3 bar before I go to the beach next weekend, but not sure if they are available locally.

Again, telemetry would make this so much easier.
The WB02 is a bit of telemetry, good to know it is showing something is still off even closer to sea level.

A couple things I'd stumbled upon the past day in this post below, one with the throttle blade adjustment (setting voltage in post #11 and 14) and another with a mishap with the air injection delete (post #24). Maybe worth checking one or both in this case.

Apparently a very low idle or vacuum issues can cause these rich problems as it seems the (unintelligent) ECU thinks you are needing more fuel as the vacuum drops (when throttle blades open vacuum decreases).
 
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