[YumaYXZ]

From my discussion with them I wouldn’t be surprised if your KRX aftermarket exhaust wouldn’t work with their stg. 2 tune.

When I was there dropping off my ECU for flash, it was clearly stated that I could use ANY open aftermarket exhaust with this tune. Not a big fan of the Trinity but bought it ONLY because that is what they tuned their stage 2 to and I was attempting to eliminate variables.

So here’s a question…..
Would afr values change because you took a muffler off? The readings are taken upstream from the muffler, right?

 

[spottsjd]

From my discussion with them I wouldn’t be surprised if your KRX aftermarket exhaust wouldn’t work with their stg. 2 tune.

When I was there dropping off my ECU for flash, it was clearly stated that I could use ANY open aftermarket exhaust with this tune. Not a big fan of the Trinity but bought it ONLY because that is what they tuned their stage 2 to and I was attempting to eliminate variables.

So here’s a question…..
Would afr values change because you took a muffler off? The readings are taken upstream from the muffler, right?

These engines purely work on VE(Volumetric Efficiency), with zero feedback(AKA Closed loop tuning). In a VE system with zero feedback, every change to the engine's ability to ingest air and expel waste products changes the tuning. Basically, the "VE" coefficient is a guestamate of how good your intake, engine, and exhaust are at flowing air. Any change in the ability to pump air from the inlet to the outlet can't be sensed by the engine, and has to be tuned for. If you make any changes to anything outside of manifold air pressure or manifold air temperature, you need to modify your VE Coeficient to match.

This makes our systems "double dumb" because they not only try to simply approximate the volume of air entering the cylender though the measurement of air pressure and temperature and multiply that by a magic VE coefficient, but they don't have any ability to correct on the back end with AFR readings. In most cars(besides performance turbo cars), I'd call them "double smart" because they both directly measure the air volume with a MAF sensor, AND can correct for AFR on the back end by reading the exhaust. This is why you can throw a pod filter and a rattle can on your honda civic and not blow anything up, but you do that to a YXZ and, like Nate's old posts, end up "Scary lean" with the GYTR tune. The MAF sensor in the civic is directly measuring the volume of air enering the intake, AND if there's any weridness happening, the lambda sensor will catch it on the back end and correct it. Some factory turbo cars(apparently the mozdaspeed3 is one) is actually VE + Lambda, or a "single smart" system. If you have AFRs backing you up, the VE model isn't a problem.

Not to bitch about VE tuning models either, tons of success in the turbo racing world with them. All the guys who aftermarket turbo anything are using VE models now. It's mostly the lack of AFR compensation that's killing us on the Y.

 

[YumaYXZ]

These engines purely work on VE(Volumetric Efficiency), with zero feedback(AKA Closed loop tuning). In a VE system with zero feedback, every change to the engine's ability to ingest air and expel waste products changes the tuning. Basically, the "VE" coefficient is a guestamate of how good your intake, engine, and exhaust are at flowing air. Any change in the ability to pump air from the inlet to the outlet can't be sensed by the engine, and has to be tuned for. If you make any changes to anything outside of manifold air pressure or manifold air temperature, you need to modify your VE Coeficient to match.

This makes our systems "double dumb" because they not only try to simply approximate the volume of air entering the cylender though the measurement of air pressure and temperature and multiply that by a magic VE coefficient, but they don't have any ability to correct on the back end with AFR readings. In most cars(besides performance turbo cars), I'd call them "double smart" because they both directly measure the air volume with a MAF sensor, AND can correct for AFR on the back end by reading the exhaust. This is why you can throw a pod filter and a rattle can on your honda civic and not blow anything up, but you do that to a YXZ and, like Nate's old posts, end up "Scary lean" with the GYTR tune. The MAF sensor in the civic is directly measuring the volume of air enering the intake, AND if there's any weridness happening, the lambda sensor will catch it on the back end and correct it. Some factory turbo cars(apparently the mozdaspeed3 is one) is actually VE + Lambda, or a "single smart" system. If you have AFRs backing you up, the VE model isn't a problem.

Not to bitch about VE tuning models either, tons of success in the turbo racing world with them. All the guys who aftermarket turbo anything are using VE models now. It's mostly the lack of AFR compensation that's killing us on the Y.

Nice explanation.

 

[RobBeck]

Nice explanation.

Yes indeed it was a great explanation. And one of the big things that led me to this point was that even Nate/Alba told me that with any (significant) variation in my exhaust he would not be able to guarantee things would be right with their tune. IIRC he did say he could help with support if it needs further alteration, but I did not get into costs/etc for further changes outside of obviously needing to keep shipping the ECU back and forth.

 

[leadmic]

Yes indeed it was a great explanation. And one of the big things that led me to this point was that even Nate/Alba told me that with any (significant) variation in my exhaust he would not be able to guarantee things would bright with their tune. IIRC he did say he could help with support if it needs further alteration, but I did not get into costs/etc for further changes outside of obviously needing to keep shipping the ECU back and forth.

It would be nice if Alba used FTEcu or equivalent to upload tunes to the ECM. You could run a data logger and email the data and tunes back and forth. When I bought my Graves exhaust they sent me the tune via email and I flashed the ECU with FTEcu.

 

[RobBeck]

It would be nice if Alba used FTEcu or equivalent to upload tunes to the ECM. You could run a data logger and email the data and tunes back and forth. When I bought my Graves exhaust they sent me the tune via email and I flashed the ECU with FTEcu.

If they did that though people could email that same file to others and the revenue stream from whatever particular tune could cease to some degree. We do not know the route they take but their tune could be locked. But you are right that sure would make life easier for those who've invested in the FTecu already. It is too bad this platform has been so uninvolved with this stuff (especially with the turbos) because by this point in maturity of the platform you'd think there would be some sound turbo files floating around by now (like the N/A cars).

 

[leadmic]

If they did that though people could email that same file to others and the revenue stream from whatever particular tune could cease to some degree. We do not know the route they take but their tune could be locked. But you are right that sure would make life easier for those who've invested in the FTecu already. It is too bad this platform has been so uninvolved with this stuff (especially with the turbos) because by this point in maturity of the platform you'd think there would be some sound files floating around by now.

You are correct except they can lock the tune to your account. I have the Graves tune for my 2019SS and tried to email it to a friend to tune another friend's ECU that they bought a new license for on his FTEcu account, but it would let him flash it because it was locked to my account. On the other hand, I had a friend that has the same car as I do and he brought his ECM over we bought a license for it on my account and I was able to successfully flash it with my account.

 

[RobBeck]

You are correct except they can lock the tune to your account. I have the Graves tune for my 2019SS and tried to email it to a friend to tune another friend's ECU that they bought a new license for on his FTEcu account, but it would let him flash it because it was locked to my account. On the other hand, I had a friend that has the same car as I do and he brought his ECM over we bought a license for it on my account and I was able to successfully flash it with my account.

Sounds right and perhaps they have their tunes locked to their own FTecu account?

All I know is that it is a bummer the Turbo YXZ setups have been held back and can only pick one cookie cutter setup, without going standalone anyway. If it weren't for wanting to have my own exhaust setup, I'd probably already have my GYTR kit installed with Vendor X/Y/Z's specific tune and exhaust by now. Trying to customize this kit a bit more to my liking has really tossed a monkey wrench into the project, hopefully if all goes well I can make it easier for the next guy.

 

[leadmic]

You always have the option of reserving some dyno time and having it custom tuned. You might have to travel to find a tuner that does the YXZ, but it might be worth it in the long run. If the tuner is any good it could one and done.

 

[RobBeck]

You always have the option of reserving some dyno time and having it custom tuned. You might have to travel to find a tuner that does the YXZ, but it might be worth it in the long run. If the tuner is any good it could one and done.

A tuner would need a method to tune though and that is what I've been working on for months now, trying to get the GYTR Turbo ECU's readable to a format that has correct definitions within FTecu. There are no other known interfaces to tune these things that I am aware of, so that was a pretty large hang up. Shipping the machine back and forth across the country for a dyno tune seems a bit extreme to me, especially if I want to ever do it again for further upgrades. But this has been the mentality of this platform for what I guess has been forever, cookie cutter it or ship it off and pray; however this does not help the allure of modifying the YXZ.

Now that I believe there is a FTecu solution the plan is to go ahead and install the kit as GYTR intended, and spend some time teaching myself how the newly Turbo'd machine is fueled using the WB02. Then once I add my exhaust I can slowly edge in to see how far it is off, keeping an eye on the boost to ensure it is still being controlled ok (ie. no boost creep, etc); and with that I can immediately start adjusting/adding fueling on the maps as/where needed. I will see how that goes with some time and testing, and if is more frustrating than I'd hoped I may just jump into the DynoJet PC6/Autotune piggyback setup to run over the top of it.

Most ideal would be to get a good safe tune that does not require the piggyback, but I will not know if that is required until I start fiddling with the fueling tables. I do have dyno access and a professional tuner I'm fairly close to nearby, but honestly I do not care as much about the last 10whp as I do a well setup/designed kit that is safely fueled. That said I could easily toss it on the dyno at some point and have him mess around with timing/fueling further as he sees fit, but it seems these things are never really all that well fueled even with the big dog tunes (just rich/safe). Personally I believe most all of the gains from the tune/exhaust is from the exhaust, and the tune is likely just to keep it safely fueled.

The Standard GYTR ECU maps should be pretty good as a basemap, but no doubt will need fuel tossed into them with a full custom exhaust. Without this latest FTecu revelation, I was temped to just run the GYTR ECU with the DynoJet PC6/Autotune piggyback and call it a day.

 

[spottsjd]

A tuner would need a method to tune though and that is what I've been working on for months now, trying to get the GYTR Turbo ECU's readable to a format that has correct definitions within FTecu. There are no other known interfaces to tune these things that I am aware of, so that was a pretty large hang up. Shipping the machine back and forth across the country for a dyno tune seems a bit extreme to me, especially if I want to ever do it again for further upgrades. But this has been the mentality of this platform for what I guess has been forever, cookie cutter it or ship it off and pray; however this does not help the allure of modifying the YXZ.

Now that I believe there is a FTecu solution the plan is to go ahead and install the kit as GYTR intended, and spend some time teaching myself how the newly Turbo'd machine is fueled using the WB02. Then once I add my exhaust I can slowly edge in to see how far it is off, keeping an eye on the boost to ensure it is still being controlled ok (ie. no boost creep, etc); and with that I can immediately start adjusting/adding fueling on the maps as/where needed. I will see how that goes with some time and testing, and if is more frustrating than I'd hoped I may just jump into the DynoJet PC6/Autotune piggyback setup to run over the top of it.

Most ideal would be to get a good safe tune that does not require the piggyback, but I will not know if that is required until I start fiddling with the fueling tables. I do have dyno access and a professional tuner I'm fairly close to nearby, but honestly I do not care as much about the last 10whp as I do a well setup/designed kit that is safely fueled. That said I could easily toss it on the dyno at some point and have him mess around with timing/fueling further as he sees fit, but it seems these things are never really all that well fueled even with the big dog tunes (just rich/safe). Personally I believe most all of the gains from the tune/exhaust is from the exhaust, and the tune is likely just to keep it safely fueled.

The Standard GYTR ECU maps should be pretty good as a basemap, but no doubt will need fuel tossed into them with a full custom exhaust. Without this latest FTecu revelation, I was temped to just run the GYTR ECU with the DynoJet PC6/Autotune piggyback and call it a day.

I remember somewhere reading that Nate isn't messing with timing. I'd guess that no tuners are messing with timing. Timing is always the dangerous/touchy feely part of tuning, and is part of why a standalone with no support would be a bit scary without knowing what the base GYTR timing is doing.

The FTECU should be all you need to get it usable. You will also need to log your AFRs, and then you can eyeball where it looks like you are lean or rich and play with it until it's rich and safe I'd probably not bother with the dyno too, seeing as these have zero compensation and now that I've learned 0E fuel is probably responsible for a full half-point AFR swing in my SxS vs everybody else at E10.

If I were you, with the working FTECU, is put at least the GYTR turbo system on and have some fun, with the knowledge that you should be able to tune out any issues. Nate doesn't use piggybacks and doesn't have issues, and the FT Tune is doing what the piggyback minus the autotune is doing, and more, which is why I wanted it. Def turn off that 9500rpm 5th gear limit!

Boost creep/overboost has nothing to do with our dumb ECUs, and wont be any more/less of an issue than the base kit(basically none if you don't have a boost controller.)

 

[RobBeck]

I remember somewhere reading that Nate isn't messing with timing. I'd guess that no tuners are messing with timing. Timing is always the dangerous/touchy feely part of tuning, and is part of why a standalone with no support would be a bit scary without knowing what the base GYTR timing is doing.

The FTECU should be all you need to get it usable. You will also need to log your AFRs, and then you can eyeball where it looks like you are lean or rich and play with it until it's rich and safe I'd probably not bother with the dyno too, seeing as these have zero compensation and now that I've learned 0E fuel is probably responsible for a full half-point AFR swing in my SxS vs everybody else at E10.

If I were you, with the working FTECU, is put at least the GYTR turbo system on and have some fun, with the knowledge that you should be able to tune out any issues. Nate doesn't use piggybacks and doesn't have issues, and the FT Tune is doing what the piggyback minus the autotune is doing, and more, which is why I wanted it. Def turn off that 9500rpm 5th gear limit!

Boost creep/overboost has nothing to do with our dumb ECUs, and wont be any more/less of an issue than the base kit(basically none if you don't have a boost controller.)

If they are not messing with the timing, all that is really left is the fueling. Messing with the fueling is all I was really planning initially, would need dyno time to see where to go from there with timing but I'd prefer to keep it less aggressive/more safe when said and done and that likely is going to be best found with what is standard with the GYTR timing maps.

The basic things, fan temps/RPM limiters/etc are easy to change in FTecu.

My boost creep mention has to do with adding free flowing exhaust, especially when you have high RPM engines with smaller turbos (this Gen 1 GYTR turbo is pretty well sized, but never hurts to confirm). Longer pulls in taller gears boost can get away if the wastegate can't keep up, so not confirming boost was still under control after adding (a full custom) exhaust could be engine suicide. Well unless the Gen 2 GYTR ECU hits fuel cut (at 10psi) as we have supposed, then that would be another indicator, but I'd rather just monitor the gauge I already will have in place.

 

[spottsjd]

If they are not messing with the timing, all that is really left is the fueling. Messing with the fueling is all I was really planning initially, would need dyno time to see where to go from there with timing but I'd prefer to keep it less aggressive/safe when said and done and that likely is going to be best found with what is standard with the GYTR timing maps.

The basic things, fan temps/RPM limiters/etc are easy to change in FTecu.

My boost creep mention has to do with adding free flowing exhaust, especially when you have high RPM engines with smaller turbos (this Gen 1 GYTR turbo is pretty well sized, but never hurts to confirm). Longer pulls in taller gears boost can get away if the wastegate can't keep up, so not confirming boost was still under control after adding (a full custom) exhaust could be engine suicide. Well unless the Gen 2 GYTR ECU hits fuel cut (at 10psi) as we have supposed, then that would be another indicator, but I'd rather just monitor the gauge I already will have in place.

I was figuring the v1 turbo was big enough that boost creep wouldn't be a concern at the boost levels we are running, but having a gauge to keep an eye on things couldn't hurt. That's another reason I have to giggle at marketing behind the v2.

I really don't think the bigger exhaust is going to do much at our boost levels. It will have an effect, and the effect will be to creep leaner than the current aftermarket sets, but I doubt it will be barely enough to tune about. Honestly, I think E0 vs E10 fuel will have a bigger impact on the tune than moving from aftermarket glass packed to straight giant pipes.

 

[RobBeck]

I was figuring the v1 turbo was big enough that boost creep wouldn't be a concern at the boost levels we are running, but having a gauge to keep an eye on things couldn't hurt. That's another reason I have to giggle at marketing behind the v2.

I really don't think the bigger exhaust is going to do much at our boost levels. It will have an effect, and the effect will be to creep leaner than the current aftermarket sets, but I doubt it will be barely enough to tune about. Honestly, I think E0 vs E10 fuel will have a bigger impact on the tune than moving from aftermarket glass packed to straight giant pipes.

You need to get that fuel in there to see what is up, before putting too much more thought into your fueling issue. But you could be 100% right, your "rich" issues could be from the pure fuel. There is no doubt Alba (and surely others) are just trying to get a good all around safe spot for that one and done for everyone everywhere regardless, with no compensation that is all they can do.

To be clear about the boost creep, aside for being commonly possible, it is also something that Nate had mentioned in our discussion. Albeit at the time I was talking to him was about running the GYTR v2 turbo (which was another saga that lead to me returning it) AND my custom exhaust, he'd just made mention that boost creep could set in... almost as if it could happen even with the GYTR v1 turbo. That said yes I'm going to definitely keep it in mind and I actually have already done some wastegate "massaging" to the housing just as a further preventative measure.

 

[spottsjd]

You need to get that fuel in there to see what is up, before putting too much more thought into your fueling issue. But you could be 100% right, your "rich" issues could be from the pure fuel. There is no doubt Alba (and surely others) are just trying to get a good all around safe spot for that one and done for everyone everywhere regardless, with no compensation that is all they can do.

To be clear about the boost creep, aside for being commonly possible, it is also something that Nate had mentioned in our discussion. Albeit at the time I was talking to him was about running the GYTR v2 turbo (which was another saga that lead to me returning it) AND my custom exhaust, he'd just made mention that boost creep could set in... almost as if it could happen even with the GYTR v1 turbo. That said yes I'm going to definitely keep it in mind and I actually have already done some wastegate "massaging" to the housing just as a further preventative measure.

It's not a bad thing to keep an eye on, but I think the gen1 is fairly safe.

And actually, thinking about it, I'm even more sketched out by the gen2 turbo... I bet they added a 10PSI boost fuel cutoff specifically to prevent possible boost creep issues...

It would be a great feature for everyone to have and be able to be tunable. You should def see if FTECU can figure out how to change that value. Super powerful tool to prevent our engines from blowing up, and if that is an actual tunable option, if I don't go standalone, I'll definitely go FTECU. There's no safer way to deal with dangerous engine conditions than having the ECU respond with limp-style modes, as much as everyone hates them.

 

[RobBeck]

It's not a bad thing to keep an eye on, but I think the gen1 is fairly safe.

And actually, thinking about it, I'm even more sketched out by the gen2 turbo... I bet they added a 10PSI boost fuel cutoff specifically to prevent possible boost creep issues...

It would be a great feature for everyone to have and be able to be tunable. You should def see if FTECU can figure out how to change that value. Super powerful tool to prevent our engines from blowing up, and if that is an actual tunable option, if I don't go standalone, I'll definitely go FTECU. There's no safer way to deal with dangerous engine conditions than having the ECU respond with limp-style modes, as much as everyone hates them.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. More than a safety measure, but could be to help protect what they know may happen at some points. Maybe the v1 turbo was a better sweet spot after all? I guess when more v2 GYTR kits get out there, we may start hearing "my car cuts out sometimes on a long pull, what is happening?" type posts... lol.

As for FTecu I will keep pushing them. First let me see if what they have works for fueling anyway. I am assuming if more jumped in with the "I want to purchase BUT this or that's" they may prioritize more development on it. You are correct that another table for fuel cut vs. boost level would be awesome for those ready to increase boost (and have the injector capacity).

 

[YumaYXZ]

I really don't think the bigger exhaust is going to do much at our boost levels. It will have an effect, and the effect will be to creep leaner than the current aftermarket sets, but I doubt it will be barely enough to tune about. Honestly, I think E0 vs E10 fuel will have a bigger impact on the tune than moving from aftermarket glass packed to straight giant pipes.

I completely agree with this. If we were talking old school like I am, we’d be talking about carburetors and jetting (hate to oversimplify 😉).
And if the fueling was correct for a certain pipe, then you go to a less restrictive pipe, you may get a lean condition. But Fernando at Alba was emphatic that I could use any non restrictive slip on I wanted and that it would not be an issue.
So, while I agree that it may lean out a bit, you’d know from your afr, right? May be a problem you’d address only if it ends up being a problem.
Thanks for bearing with me guys….

 

[RobBeck]

I completely agree with this. If we were talking old school like I am, we’d be talking about carburetors and jetting (hate to oversimplify 😉).
And if the fueling was correct for a certain pipe, then you go to a less restrictive pipe, you may get a lean condition. But Fernando at Alba was emphatic that I could use any non restrictive slip on I wanted and that it would not be an issue.
So, while I agree that it may lean out a bit, you’d know from your afr, right? May be a problem you’d address only if it ends up being a problem.
Thanks for bearing with me guys….

There is certainly the possibility that Alba's tune could be fueled well enough for my exhaust setup, but unfortunately he (Nate himself) did NOT seem to be so sure and he suggested that it could also very well just be a starting point. While I am sure the Alba tune would be a better place to start than the OE GYTR tune fueling wise; that GYTR collector, pipe, even with the Trinity exhaust is quite small/restrictive vs. what I am looking to do and so I likely will require more fueling even yet. But yes if you are using ANY aftermarket "slip-on" this means that you are using the standard GYTR collector and pipe, while only changing the muffler at that point, and this is the difference.

My exhaust setup is a cast SS Garrett 5-bolt flange to 3" v-band, 3" tapering to 2.5" at the muffler, then using the Trinity Stage 5 KRX muffler which is 2.5" ID (with yxz frame mount).

 

[spottsjd]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. More than a safety measure, but could be to help protect what they know may happen at some points. Maybe the v1 turbo was a better sweet spot after all? I guess when more v2 GYTR kits get out there, we may start hearing "my car cuts out sometimes on a long pull, what is happening?" type posts... lol.

As for FTecu I will keep pushing them. First let me see if what they have works for fueling anyway. I am assuming if more jumped in with the "I want to purchase BUT this or that's" they may prioritize more development on it. You are correct that another table for fuel cut vs. boost level would be awesome for those ready to increase boost (and have the injector capacity).

I imagine even the v2 will only overboost in the most abusive of cases, BUT it's funny that they suddenly decided to add the safety measure after putting in a smaller turbo that would theoretically be more prone to it? And it could be a "soft cut" sort of setting to, where it just pulls fuel so momentarily that no one will notice it, as it will go from making 10psi to, well, less psi than 10, depending on how aggressive the system is.

I'm still so on the fence about this whole limping along of our already flawed engine management system. I'm into alba $400, FTECU will be $500, and the EMU Black ECU itself is only $1200. With a homemade wiring harness, I'd probably only be into it for $1500, and I want to give it a look after riding season to see if it's possible.

Damn I wish these ecus were closed loop.

 

[RobBeck]

I imagine even the v2 will only overboost in the most abusive of cases, BUT it's funny that they suddenly decided to add the safety measure after putting in a smaller turbo that would theoretically be more prone to it? And it could be a "soft cut" sort of setting to, where it just pulls fuel so momentarily that no one will notice it, as it will go from making 10psi to, well, less psi than 10, depending on how aggressive the system is.

I'm still so on the fence about this whole limping along of our already flawed engine management system. I'm into alba $400, FTECU will be $500, and the EMU Black ECU itself is only $1200. With a homemade wiring harness, I'd probably only be into it for $1500, and I want to give it a look after riding season to see if it's possible.

Damn I wish these ecus were closed loop.

Yeah but you know how that goes, what other BS do you run into (and you know you will) even if you went to the EMU Black or Motec even after the initial cost/harness debacles?

Having this FTecu setup with some eyes on a WB02 to get dialed, and confirm things ok during seasons/elevations/etc, should be enough.

It is possible your Alba purchase may just turn into a sunk cost, provided you want to further enhance your fueling, but least has possibility to resell it to try to get something back. Or you can just leave well enough alone for now and enjoy your ride as it is.

At the moment I am in for the FTecu and extra v2 GYTR ECU I bought just to read/compare with the v1 GYTR ECU that came with my kit. Adding in the Dynojet/pc6/autotune I hope I can avoid. I am pretty much turned off from going Stand Alone at this point now that I think FTecu has provided this avenue.