YXZ Sequential Manual 5-speed vs Honda Pioneer Dual Clutch and Low-Range mode

17030 Views 27 Replies 14 Participants Last post by AZRickD, Sep 10, 2015

AZRickD

Discussion Starter · Sep 7, 2015 (Edited)

3

Coming from the dirt bike *enduro* world (owned every major brand, including three Yamahas) I think I have a feel for where Yamaha is going with its transmission.

I also have had Rekluse auto-clutches installed in three bikes and like them for the technical rocks and rutted climbs we ride here in Arizona. The Rekluse is very handy in those situation, but a nice low gear ratio (smaller front or bigger rear sprocket) is advantageous as well.

I have owned two utility SxS (Ranger and Teryx), and have ridden and driven or followed a few hundred miles in RZRs and Wildcats. I've recently sold the Teryx and will be looking to replace it with a 2-seat sporty SxS such as the YXZ next year.

I see the Yamaha easily excelling in open areas such as dunes and our many sand washes. I might go to the dunes twice a year, while Arizona sand washes will be nearly every single ride.

My concern is that on any long loop my usual group likes to take (60 to 150 miles. generally), those fast sections are linked with short, and not so short technical sections. Rocks and such. They typically leave their machines in Hi-Range and I am usually the first to drop into Low-Range to get more control and to protect the belt. Yeah, they wheel-spin and hop when they tackle those obstacles in Hi-Range, but they don't seem to care because they want to keep it in Hi to jet off to the next fast section. Their style, not mine.

So the question is -- without a Low-Range, how will the YXZ handle the situations where we would be doing low-range creeping over river rock and small step-ups?

I haven't seen any gear ratio specs so I don't know how well first gear would handle slow, rocky trails (with or without the $800 optional Rekluse auto-clutch which I would strongly consider purchasing).

One clue is one forum poster's opinion that the YXZ topped out at 18mph in first gear. My Teryx in Low-Range would top out in the 30-mph range, if I recall. So that makes things sound better than I had originally thought.

Opinions?

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Glamisfan

· #2 · Sep 7, 2015 (Edited)

The driver shifted at 18, that wasn't the max in first. The Honda DCT with hi and low plus open and locked diffs is the best possible transmission for a sxs!!! Jury is still out on if the YXZ can crawl or not.

Ls7Blowboat

· #3 · Sep 7, 2015

Looking forward to reading some first hand info on this very topic. There was a short glimpse of the yxz crawling up a rock in one of the videos so I'm staying hopeful for now. I like the fact that there is no electronics involved as with the honda system, seams like potential for expensive repairs down the line with the honda.

AZRickD

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 7, 2015 (Edited)

Agreed on all fronts. The DCT has its own special limitations -- and I can't imagine it would be cheap to fix if it grenades. I haven't heard anything in the way of problems for the Honda DCT.

If the YXZ can't crawl a bit (or more than a bit, sometimes), I can't buy it, which sucks because I think the YXZ would be a hoot to drive, in every other mode.

I might find myself waiting a lonnnnng time for a Honda Long-Travel-Suspension Sporty-Sport with the full compliment of Pioneer tranny modes.

And they better step up the horsepower on the Honda 1000R. 77 horsepower is enemic. --->

http://www.hondaprokevin.com/2016-h...e-by-side-atv-sxs1000m3-eps-sxs1000m5-deluxe/

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Hoseclamp

· #5 · Sep 7, 2015

For myself it will need to have some capacity down low. If it's geared too tall it won't work for me either.

AZRickD

Discussion Starter · #6 · Sep 7, 2015

We have a common decision point.

If it crawls -- buy.
If it doesn't crawl -- go elsewhere (and/or wait).

I can't imagine Yamaha (with the Rhino, Viking, and Wolverine on its resume') didn't at least consider key component during the early design stages.

Glamisfan

· #7 · Sep 7, 2015

I am like if it doesn't crawl, can I change my off-road habits and just stick to the high-speed stuff? Or can I crawl, but just at a higher speed than I'm used to? Instead of going three or 4 miles an hour through the technical stuff, can I just hit a little faster at 10 miles an hour?
It's been said before, any four-wheel-drive worth it's weight off Road has a high range and a low range. And the not knowing if this thing can crawl or not is killing me! I can't wait till somebody finally gets it out there and tries it and also I can't wait to find out what the maximum speed in each gear is. I was thinking, if a street bike is geared for 180 mph and this thing is geared for 90 miles an hour, and you could just look at the maximum speed in each gear for us Yamaha street bike and cut that in half, that might be close to what this thing does?

Desertdog

· #8 · Sep 7, 2015

For you crawling guys I think it will boil down to what you can live with. Depending on what % of your riding is hard core and how much is softer where you can get by with what the gearing will allow. I bet you will be able to do some crawling but it won't be suitable for hardcore stuff like a specific vehicle would be designed for. It's all about compromise. A great crawler won't work well in open desert or duning but visa versa for other vehicles.

jajl22

· #9 · Sep 7, 2015

I thought on the picture thread he said it would start in 1st and you could let out the clutch and not give it any throttle and it would tractor along with out stalling, even at an uphill grade. I would think if that is truly the case then 1st gear must be pretty darn low.

AZRickD

Discussion Starter · #10 · Sep 8, 2015

Or can I crawl, but just at a higher speed than I'm used to?

If 1st gear is a little, or a little-lot tall then the vehicle (with or without Rekluse installed) will have two choices, 1) press in the clutch part way to feather it, allowing it to slip so as to control wheel spin and keep it in the torque band. Or 2) go with Glamisfan's proposed extra-speed technique which will be jouncy, if not brutal, on the occupants as well as the frame and skip plate. As Glamisfan probably already knows -- not optimal. And feathering the clutch manually or with the Rekluse (that's essentially what a Rekluse does based on RPM and centripetal force), means that wet clutch will get very hot. Of course, in a dirt bike, the wet clutch is integral to the motor (the tranny oil is shared) -- this leads to steaming radiators in those bikes. With the YXZ having a separate tranny that means less problems other than changing the tranny fluid somewhat more often, and perhaps swapping out the clutch plates sooner. If that is the extent of it, no big deal, really.

It's all about compromise. A great crawler won't work well in open desert or duning but visa versa for other vehicles.

Agreed. But fortunately I'm not looking for *great* crawling. Just adequate. Heck, my Ranger and Teryx crawled in Low-Range reasonably well. Not monster-jeep stuff, but they both needed Low-Range to keep wheel spin down and to guard against belt abuse as I traveled uphill going over cantaloupe-sized rocks.

To respond to DesertDog's "compromise" point, that issue is dealt with rather cleanly with a Low-Range. The YXZ tranny might be brilliantly designed and might not need it. But if it turns out to be a jouncy wheel-spinner over such terrain, Yamaha's R&D team has blueprinted itself out of a good portion of the two-track market, and those who *do* buy the YXZ for Arizona's hilly 2-track will be cursing themselves (if Yamaha didn't put in a decent granny-gear 1st).

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Glamisfan

· #11 · Sep 8, 2015

Exactly. I tried to find the ratios of motorcycles, Ii then dawned on me to try to find like a YZF450 speed and each gear and I can't find anything. And I've looked into that recluse option and I agree that all you'll be doing is slipping the clutch just like you had your foot on the pedal slipping it so doesn't make the thing magically crawl. To the OP, in the video of the dealer doing a ride along you can clearly watch the driver put it in first gear and take off and it sounds like he takes it about halfway through the RPM range and it's doing 18 miles an hour when he shifts to second. That's what has me worried! And then I want to put 30 inch tires on it on top of that! I know that there is a gear reduction going from the first input shaft going into the transmission to the clutch pack. All it would take is a smaller gear on the first one and A bigger gear on the clutch and we could at least gear down for the bigger tires.

St222

· #12 · Sep 8, 2015

A yfz450 is geared tall in first..meaning it feals like second

Ls7Blowboat

· #13 · Sep 8, 2015

jajl22 said:
I thought on the picture thread he said it would start in 1st and you could let out the clutch and not give it any throttle and it would tractor along with out stalling, even at an uphill grade. I would think if that is truly the case then 1st gear must be pretty darn low.

Sweet, I found where it was talked about. Anyone else interested read pages 5 through 9 in the official picture thread. Sounds like what we wanted to hear!

Hoseclamp

· #14 · Sep 8, 2015

If there's easily 18mph in first, it isn't that low, until we get some ride time, the crystal ball is all we have

Poseidon

· #15 · Sep 8, 2015

Keep in mind, you have almost twice the rpms of other SxS's to get to 18mph.

AZRickD

Discussion Starter · #16 · Sep 8, 2015

Correct. 10,500 for the YXZ and barely over 8,000 for an ECU-re flashed Teryx, so... There remains hope.

Hoseclamp

· #17 · Sep 8, 2015

It's what it does trying to cut through trees and over logs at 2-3mph, are you fanning or is it controllable. Someone's gotta get one home soon

Sandman365

· #18 · Sep 8, 2015

My guess is first gear will be low enough that the only time you'd even use it is when crawling. Can't imagine you'd need to nurse the clutch in 1st to go up a trail a 5mph...but who knows?

scottdmax

· #19 · Sep 8, 2015

Sandman365 said:
My guess is first gear will be low enough that the only time you'd even use it is when crawling. Can't imagine you'd need to nurse the clutch in 1st to go up a trail a 5mph...but who knows?

And bear in mind they DID equip this thing with a fully locking front diff. Why would they have even done this if it didn't have the capability to crawl over slow technical stuff?

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scottdmax

· #20 · Sep 8, 2015

^^^^I think we can take some hope in that fact.

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